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	<title>Comments for Rich Mironov&#039;s Product Bytes</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mironov.com/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mironov.com</link>
	<description>Strategic product thinking for the scrappy entrepreneur in all of us.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:17:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Product Managers (in Swedish or English) by Stephen</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/pm-kpi/#comment-9053</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2191#comment-9053</guid>
		<description>Nice post--although I would love to have more hard metrics to hang my hat on, I agree that we just can&#039;t put a number on some things (and roles). Unfortunately, I&#039;ve seen management at a couple of different companies that don&#039;t get the soft metrics part and think that product management is expendable:(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post&#8211;although I would love to have more hard metrics to hang my hat on, I agree that we just can&#8217;t put a number on some things (and roles). Unfortunately, I&#8217;ve seen management at a couple of different companies that don&#8217;t get the soft metrics part and think that product management is expendable:(</p>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Product Managers (in Swedish or English) by Scott Sehlhorst</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/pm-kpi/#comment-9052</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Sehlhorst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2191#comment-9052</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve really evolved into the &quot;decouple performance reviews / compensation from metrics&quot; point of view.

When you measure someone on something specific (unambiguous, easy to measure, atomic, etc), they become biased towards doing the thing that most effectively improves that metric.

When you focus on the metrics that really matter, not only is there too much (time) lag in the system before you get useful information back, but you can&#039;t isolate the variables.

If someone is not spending enough time in the field (easy to measure) what it probably means is that they don&#039;t have sufficient insight into the problems that are important to customers (easy to query, subjective to evaluate, impossible to quantify).  I prefer to have that conversation as part of an ongoing dialog, not a performance review (or at least it is only a recap of past discussions during the review).

There really shouldn&#039;t be any surprises during the annual-review meeting (except the $ amount of the raise/bonus).

The best way to manage product managers, imho, is the same as the best way to manage any knowledge worker - through ongoing dialog, coaching and mentoring - NOT to measure them with an assured-to-be-inaccurate ruler.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve really evolved into the &#8220;decouple performance reviews / compensation from metrics&#8221; point of view.</p>
<p>When you measure someone on something specific (unambiguous, easy to measure, atomic, etc), they become biased towards doing the thing that most effectively improves that metric.</p>
<p>When you focus on the metrics that really matter, not only is there too much (time) lag in the system before you get useful information back, but you can&#8217;t isolate the variables.</p>
<p>If someone is not spending enough time in the field (easy to measure) what it probably means is that they don&#8217;t have sufficient insight into the problems that are important to customers (easy to query, subjective to evaluate, impossible to quantify).  I prefer to have that conversation as part of an ongoing dialog, not a performance review (or at least it is only a recap of past discussions during the review).</p>
<p>There really shouldn&#8217;t be any surprises during the annual-review meeting (except the $ amount of the raise/bonus).</p>
<p>The best way to manage product managers, imho, is the same as the best way to manage any knowledge worker &#8211; through ongoing dialog, coaching and mentoring &#8211; NOT to measure them with an assured-to-be-inaccurate ruler.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Product Managers (in Swedish or English) by Scott Sehlhorst</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/pm-kpi/#comment-9051</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Sehlhorst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2191#comment-9051</guid>
		<description>Greg - agreed.  I&#039;ll add that the same is true for any organization - waterfall or agile.  The commitments to customers (and partners, and sales, and customer service, and the rest of your org) should look like

&quot;In release X, we will address problem Y, and improve the (customer experience &#124; value proposition) for Z&quot;

They should not be &quot;We will implement widget M&quot; or even &quot;feature N&quot; or &quot;capability O&quot; (although you might need to talk about capabilities, from an outbound standpoint in a B2C situation - you can manage your sales force to handle this &quot;contextual translation&quot; in B2B or B2B2C scenarios).

Also - Rich, yet another great article!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg &#8211; agreed.  I&#8217;ll add that the same is true for any organization &#8211; waterfall or agile.  The commitments to customers (and partners, and sales, and customer service, and the rest of your org) should look like</p>
<p>&#8220;In release X, we will address problem Y, and improve the (customer experience | value proposition) for Z&#8221;</p>
<p>They should not be &#8220;We will implement widget M&#8221; or even &#8220;feature N&#8221; or &#8220;capability O&#8221; (although you might need to talk about capabilities, from an outbound standpoint in a B2C situation &#8211; you can manage your sales force to handle this &#8220;contextual translation&#8221; in B2B or B2B2C scenarios).</p>
<p>Also &#8211; Rich, yet another great article!</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Planetary View of Agile Product Management by Abhay</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/planets/#comment-9037</link>
		<dc:creator>Abhay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2237#comment-9037</guid>
		<description>must say, looking at stars to draw inspiration and motivation is great example of thinking differently.

@mathurabhay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>must say, looking at stars to draw inspiration and motivation is great example of thinking differently.</p>
<p>@mathurabhay</p>
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		<title>Comment on What&#8217;s A Vice President of Product Management? by Rich</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/vppm/#comment-9035</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2017#comment-9035</guid>
		<description>Dan: I&#039;ve seen this work both ways.  A less-technical CEO who puts product management within Engineering for lack of interest/focus, --contrasting with-- a CEO who wants an independent (non-Eng) point of view on product/tech issues, so has prodmgmt reporting up through Marketing or Strategy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan: I&#8217;ve seen this work both ways.  A less-technical CEO who puts product management within Engineering for lack of interest/focus, &#8211;contrasting with&#8211; a CEO who wants an independent (non-Eng) point of view on product/tech issues, so has prodmgmt reporting up through Marketing or Strategy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What&#8217;s A Vice President of Product Management? by Daniel</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/vppm/#comment-9034</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2017#comment-9034</guid>
		<description>Rich,

What are your thoughts on how a VP Product position is different in a company where the CEO has a sales/marketing background versus a company where the CEO has an engineering/product background?

For instance, in speaking with a colleague recently, she pointed out that a CEO with a sales/marketing background is less likely to keep engineering and product under separate leadership, because he/she (the CEO) is unable to mediate effectively between them.

Thanks!
Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich,</p>
<p>What are your thoughts on how a VP Product position is different in a company where the CEO has a sales/marketing background versus a company where the CEO has an engineering/product background?</p>
<p>For instance, in speaking with a colleague recently, she pointed out that a CEO with a sales/marketing background is less likely to keep engineering and product under separate leadership, because he/she (the CEO) is unable to mediate effectively between them.</p>
<p>Thanks!<br />
Dan</p>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Product Managers (in Swedish or English) by Greg Gehrich</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/pm-kpi/#comment-9028</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Gehrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2012 19:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2191#comment-9028</guid>
		<description>In an agile product organization, the roadmaps for customers and sales should concentrate on the problems to be solved, rather than the way they will be solved. This establishes a vision to guide the product evolution without overly prescribing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an agile product organization, the roadmaps for customers and sales should concentrate on the problems to be solved, rather than the way they will be solved. This establishes a vision to guide the product evolution without overly prescribing it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Product Managers (in Swedish or English) by Rather Not Say</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/pm-kpi/#comment-9007</link>
		<dc:creator>Rather Not Say</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2191#comment-9007</guid>
		<description>I loved this &quot;Our agile development teams tell us that roadmaps are no longer needed, but our customers and sales teams still demand firm commitments.&quot;
Great Article!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved this &#8220;Our agile development teams tell us that roadmaps are no longer needed, but our customers and sales teams still demand firm commitments.&#8221;<br />
Great Article!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Product Managers (in Swedish or English) by Rich</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/pm-kpi/#comment-9004</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2012 02:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2191#comment-9004</guid>
		<description>Thanks for such a thoughtful set of suggestions.  I especially like (3), since it puts the metrics onus back on each product manager.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for such a thoughtful set of suggestions.  I especially like (3), since it puts the metrics onus back on each product manager.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Product Managers (in Swedish or English) by Paul Young</title>
		<link>http://mironov.com/pm-kpi/#comment-9002</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2012 02:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mironov.com/?p=2191#comment-9002</guid>
		<description>Thanks Rich, good topic for discussion.

You are right that measuring individual performance for product managers is hard.  You can make a legit argument that it takes up to 24 months to gauge if a new PM is good or not.  When I hire a new PM, I might send them into the market to learn for 3 months, then they will spend 3 months writing some requirements, then engineering will build something for 6 months, then we have a 6 month sales cycle, then we have to spend time evaluating results.  Hopefully we&#039;d be more agile than that but it&#039;s possible it would take this long.  But as a manager of product management, you can&#039;t wait 18-24 months to assess an individual&#039;s performance - that&#039;s horribly inefficient.

To make it worse, in my experience most companies judge their product managers individual metrics on what you describe as product metrics above: product revenue, margin, or customer sat.  A product manager might have (indirect) control of these metrics, but there are a lot of factors that impact them way outside of the PM&#039;s control.  What if the PM is measured on revenue and halfway through the year the company makes an acquisition and redirects Sales resourcing?  Huge impact to the PM&#039;s metrics through no fault of the PM him/herself.

What I have settled on for measuring individual performance is to measure the activities required for a PM to be market-driven.  Namely: 1) a quota for market visits (10/quarter is a good start IMO), 2) being able to defend an updated business plan in front of me and their peers every quarter, without using the phrases &quot;I think,&quot; or &quot;In my opinion&quot; (which requires higher order thought and research), and 3) keeping their finger on the pulse of the business by defining and measuring the right product level metrics and communicating them in the form of a dashboard report monthly.  I like these metrics because they require a PM to get out from behind their desk and be outside-in focused, and the PM can control them, as opposed to revenue, margin or CSAT which the PM cannot control.  

All things being equal, I&#039;d prefer to measure outcomes as opposed to activities, but as you put it, it&#039;s wicked hard to separate and quantify the inputs of a PM vis-a-vi all the other variables that go into making a product fly.  So until we crack that code, I&#039;ll use activities as a proxy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Rich, good topic for discussion.</p>
<p>You are right that measuring individual performance for product managers is hard.  You can make a legit argument that it takes up to 24 months to gauge if a new PM is good or not.  When I hire a new PM, I might send them into the market to learn for 3 months, then they will spend 3 months writing some requirements, then engineering will build something for 6 months, then we have a 6 month sales cycle, then we have to spend time evaluating results.  Hopefully we&#8217;d be more agile than that but it&#8217;s possible it would take this long.  But as a manager of product management, you can&#8217;t wait 18-24 months to assess an individual&#8217;s performance &#8211; that&#8217;s horribly inefficient.</p>
<p>To make it worse, in my experience most companies judge their product managers individual metrics on what you describe as product metrics above: product revenue, margin, or customer sat.  A product manager might have (indirect) control of these metrics, but there are a lot of factors that impact them way outside of the PM&#8217;s control.  What if the PM is measured on revenue and halfway through the year the company makes an acquisition and redirects Sales resourcing?  Huge impact to the PM&#8217;s metrics through no fault of the PM him/herself.</p>
<p>What I have settled on for measuring individual performance is to measure the activities required for a PM to be market-driven.  Namely: 1) a quota for market visits (10/quarter is a good start IMO), 2) being able to defend an updated business plan in front of me and their peers every quarter, without using the phrases &#8220;I think,&#8221; or &#8220;In my opinion&#8221; (which requires higher order thought and research), and 3) keeping their finger on the pulse of the business by defining and measuring the right product level metrics and communicating them in the form of a dashboard report monthly.  I like these metrics because they require a PM to get out from behind their desk and be outside-in focused, and the PM can control them, as opposed to revenue, margin or CSAT which the PM cannot control.  </p>
<p>All things being equal, I&#8217;d prefer to measure outcomes as opposed to activities, but as you put it, it&#8217;s wicked hard to separate and quantify the inputs of a PM vis-a-vi all the other variables that go into making a product fly.  So until we crack that code, I&#8217;ll use activities as a proxy.</p>
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